Well, this is asking for trouble and a liberal helping of egg on the face! :)
Something to do while I wait for good trimming conditions for the Chiribiri.
As I said elsewhere I've wanted a Ryan NYP for a very long time now. My Dumas Ryan M-1 was an attempt to assuage that desire, but I fear all it did was feed it.
For the usual reasons it has to be a Peanut and I wanted the shape to be moderately accurate. This meant those plans that rendered the fuselage aft of the wing as a simple box didn't make the cut.
So, using the Moulton Three View in the June '77 AM (thanks Bill), I've scribbled up my own. Will it work? Dunno. It may turn out to be a lardy old bus with the endurance and flight profile of a house brick, but I'll have fun finding out. I'm not looking for stellar performance with this, anything more than 10 to 15s will be reckoned a success and anything like 25s will be accounted a minor miracle.
As with most of my recent projects this is likely to be a slow build despite its diminutive dimensions. If only because I'm bound to find things that need to be rethought or even that I've drawn bits that are unbuildable. You are allowed to laugh if (when) this happens.
I'm going for a near scale undercarriage stance - wheels in the in-flight position - and no dihedral. My M-1 flies quite nicely with no dihedral and the 1957 Coates NYP did too so room for optimism on that front. Some of the fine details; like the periscope, pitot tube, the wind driven dynamo for the compass and the tiny lettering on the tail will be omitted as out of my reach.
I'll start cutting wood for the fuselage some time this week. The wing will have to wait until I can get an A3 sheet printed because I can't quite fit it on an A4 sheet and I don't much like mucking about with tiled prints.
The α version of the plan is attached for your amusement, or derision, as suits.
That will be an interesting built!
I loved your description though..... ;D
Rock the board!!
That's a nicely done plan Lurk.
i hope you don't think I'm nit picking but the fin/rudder looks a little light on in area to me. I notice that the tail has been increased and I feel that the fin/rudder should match the tail increase ratio.
Good luck.
Agree re. rudder/fin
Agree no dihedral; after all it's a Lacey that you can bear to look at on a shelf. It was by Moulton in 1957 by the way. I built one and it flew with 'invisible hands on each wingtip', just like the blurb. Shame about the consecutive loops.
Bill
OZPAF> ...nicely done plan...
Ta, but as von Moltke didn't quite say, "No plan survives contact with the balsa." :)
OZPAF> ...tail plane...
The tail area is as the Moulton three view and, I believe, scale. No resizing by me.
OZPAF, Bill>..fin...
Yes, it does look worryingly... petite, but it has the same proportions, details below, as the one given on the Moulton plan Not Coates, house point to Bill for spotting my deliberate mistake; yes definitely deliberate not occasioned by stupidity at all. We know the Moulton flew OK with scale proportion tail surfaces so I'm minded to leave things as they are for the moment. It won't be a major set back if a larger fin & rudder does turn out to be required. However, I am expecting it to be as reluctant to turn as my M-1 and the 1957 incarnations of Mr. Moulton's plan.
Fin height
This ~ 45% of tail plane width
Moulton ~ 44% of tail plane width
Fin width
This ~ 80% of tail plane width
Moulton ~ 77% of tail plane width
First wood cut today and am using some of Dusty Millar's beautiful balsa; low density, high strength. Cheap at twice the price.
Formers & strip for fuselage.
I may recut formers F1a. They're the clamp for the UC wire and after I'd cut them it ocurred to me that it may be sensible to go for a denser bit of wood.
The next job is to make up and rough shape the "box" for the front of the fuselage. If I can't get that to work there's no point in going any further.
Today's plan was to get both "boxes" built preparatory to rough shaping. Plans eh? The poetical taxman had things to say about plans. He was right, still; half way there is better than no progress at all. The after box is built. This one requires very little shaping, a bit of chamfering at the top and bottom and that's about it. I'd planned to use 1/8" strip for the fillets, but I have no really light 1/8" so used 3/16" instead. No odds, almost all of it gets sanded away.
Snap No. 1 reminds me. Artists' layout paper, 45gsm. If you don't already use it for your home-printed templates I recommend it. It doesn't dull the blades as quickly as standard 80gsm printer paper and less pressure is needed to cut through it so edges don't get crushed. The latter is v. handy when cutting fine slots & small pieces.
Having got the wood for the fuselage cut, other than the noseblock, I thought I'd try for a rough estimate at a likely fuselage weight. Simply to see whether or not it was going to be a, "lardy old bus".
Formers (as prev. post) 0.19g
Box No.2 (as seen) 0.23g
Box No.3 (bits) 0.33g*
Frame sticks 0.15g**
Longerons/stringer sticks 0.17g**
All runs out to 1.07g which makes me think, allowing for glue and not using all of the wood (esp. the sticks) that an unadorned fuselage weight of somewhere around 1.25g - 1.50g is probable. For comparison my Moorhouse Comper Swift's fuselage came in at 0.93g. Not wonderful, but not, so far, shaping up to be a boat anchor.
*I'm expecting the box to be a bit lighter when built, the paper currently stuck to the bits will be lost and there's quite a bit of wood to be sanded away.
**These are the weights for the uncut, overlong, sticks.
Box No. 3!? Idiot. Box No.1. I blame the heat.
Very neatly done Lurk.. that is very nice wood too isn't it
Right, I can build a passable front bit for the fuselage. It looks about right when held against the plan so it'll do. See the snaps.
Box as seen 0.49g & the nose plug opening adds 0.07g. It may be possible to sand another one or two hundreths of a gramme out of it, but I rather think I'm going to need a bit of weight up front.
As expected Von Moltke's dictum applies to the build. First, cough, amendment. The fillets need to be 3/16" rather than 1/8" for both boxes. If this were laser cut 1/8" might just be possible, but that leaves no wriggle room at all when shaping.
Next potential "stopper" is the motor, so that's up next. However it's Trinity on Sat. and it's a newsletter month so won't be starting on the motor until that's out the door.
Nice work!
Finally made a start on the Wright Whirlwind J5 yesterday.
Cylinder blanks made using the traditional thread on a dowel method. One of the very, very few fabrication steps where cyano is my adhesive of choice.
The only things that might be new(ish) are
- I use button thread rather than ordinary sewing thread, it's a wee bit thicker and I think it gives a more convinincing result.
- I glue (yes, cyano) the balsa dowel to some cheap pine dowel (from Hobbycraft or the like) to make it easier to hold and rotate as I'm winding the thread.
1 Start
2 One hour later
3 Separated and...
4 Painted
Looks about the right size for bendy straws - the bendy bit.
Quote from: billdennis747 on Jul 30, 2026, 11:23 PMLooks about the right size for bendy straws - the bendy bit.
Yebbut... I gave all the bendy elbow bits I'd gathered to someone at Trinity a year or two back and I have the devil's own job of getting plastic and wood to stay stuck together for any length of time. Especially when bits are subject to my ham-fisted trimming.
Now here's something to whet your collective appetite. Maybe.
You may remember I experimented with tinfoil a wee while ago to see if I could get a decent looking engine turned finish. You can, but foil-wood adhesion was poor and I could foresee issues with the compound curves of the NYP's nose and of course fag packet liners with that very fine foil that would take a compound curve are no longer a thing.
Anyway... as a consequence of several things, including a natter about toy aeroplanes and their construction at a family gathering, the idea of gilding
finally occurred to me. Happily for me, as well as genuine gold (and silver) leaf, you can buy "fake" leaf in "gold", "silver" (Al rather than Ag) and copper colours.
This weekend's (*) experiments (yes plural - bound to stuff it up several times) will be in "silver" gilding. This will either be an expensive failure, the bits in the snap made 50 quid look silly, or the dawn of glorious new age in metallic finishes for small model aeroplanes. I'm not betting on the dawn of a ect ect ect. Chiz. :)
The main questions to be answered are:
- Can I prepare the surfaces well enough to get a smooth finish without wrinkles?
- Will it cope well with compound curves?
I expect it to given its extensive use for intricately carved rococo picture frames (https://theframeblog.com/2013/05/17/carving-gilding-a-british-rococo-frame/). But...- Will it be robust enough?
- Will it survive an attempt to mimic engine turning?
(*) Could be more than a weekend. We shall see.
If it proves moderately robust, but won't take any kind of abrading for the engine turning then I expect to be able to use the idea for polished Al engine cowlings.
Stay tuned for more
exciting developments.
I did engine turning on an aluminium cowling for a Sopwith Triplane and it looked great. I just used a dowel with a hole punched disc of wet and dry stuck to the end and twizzled on the aluminium. But I did use a template with a short row of holes punched in, to keep the dowel twizzles in a regular-ish line.
Quote from: billdennis747 on Jul 31, 2026, 10:51 PM...did use a template with a short row of holes punched in, to keep the dowel twizzles in a regular-ish line.
That is an excellent idea, consider it
nicked snaffled ahem
adopted. :)
Quote from: TheLurkerNow here's something to whet your collective appetite. Maybe.
Yup. duly whetted.
I had a big clear-out recently and had to decide what to do with some leaves of ackshual Ag silver leaf I bought years ago but never tried. It disintegrated even as I tried to separate it from its thin paper protective backing. In the bin. Good luck with the Al.
Stephen.
Quote from: Prosper on Aug 01, 2026, 05:30 PM...had to decide what to do with some leaves of ackshual Ag silver leaf I bought years ago but never tried.
They're obviously paying you too much. Real Ag! Bai Eck. Looxury! When I wur a lad... :)
All the tutorials say something like, "Start with a flat piece of wood...", but we're aeromodellers and how many of us started with a simple glider as recommended in all the beginners' guides? Aye, right. Not one single one of us. Anyway I needed to know sooner rather than later whether or not this was going to work for compound curves so I dug out one of the many, oh so many, spare nose blocks I made for my VMC MfM Camel to use as a test piece.
First up prep. I wanted to see what the bare minimum prep. I could get away with was. I'm lazy, so shoot me. :)
Sand back, fill any big dents with my usual PVA, talc & H20 "gesso", flat and prime with white (Windsor & Newton, Galeria) acrylic. When I was picking the brains of one of the artists in our local studios about how to gild wood she suggested acrylic and even at a push emulsion as cheap & good alternatives to the proper gilder's gesso.
1 - Start
2, 3 fill & flat
4 primed
Applying the leaf. A few mistakes made, but for a first go I'm well satisfied.
The initial result. A bit more prep will be required if an absolutely mirror perfect surface is to be represented, but at arm's length (last snap) "bare min." prep seems to be just about enough.
Out of the box the leaf gives a very high shine, perhaps too high for a small model, but a thin film of matt varnish should deal with that if a duller finish is needed. The usual recommendation is to seal with a varnish for real Au & Ag to prevent tarnishing as well as improve durability.
I had a quick go with a small flat test piece to see if the leaf would stand up to being "twizzled" (thank you Bill). It does, if you're exceedingly gentle and I think the effect is going to be good enough for the NYP. Unfortunately my camera can't cope with the glare as well as the MKI eyeball so it's not that easy to see in the pictures.
The last experiment was to see if I could represent an oxidized / weathered aluminium surface as you'd see on an much used in-service aircraft. A very, very gentle scouring with flour paper seems to do the trick.
Conclusion.
The Al leaf "gilding" looks as though it will give a satisfactory result and allow me to at least hint at an engine turned finish even if it's not possible to get the sort of result that's possible with tinfoil.
I also suspect, but cannot prove, that the leaf will be no heavier than two or three coats of flat Al acryic paint. It may even be lighter.
Quote from: TheLurkerThey're obviously paying you too much. Real Ag! Bai Eck. Looxury! When I wur a lad... :)
Well the weight of silver I threw away must be miniscule. I did wonder what else it might be useful for but drew a blank.
Yest. evening I re-watched 'The Spirit of St Louis' film, (1957). As aviation films go, it's really good. There's a brief glimpse of engine-turning - see attached screenshot. The film is available to watch or download from the Internet Archive, if anyone's interested.
https://archive.org/details/the-spirit-of-st.-louis-1957
Dunno about the video quality of that particular print.
Interesting work Lurk, thanks for showing the details. This makes me wonder whether the brass leaf could be successfully applied over tissue to represent the wing radiators on some 1920s and 1930s racers such as the Macchis.
Mike
Quote from: MKelly on Aug 02, 2026, 07:31 PM... makes me wonder whether the brass leaf could be successfully applied over tissue to represent the wing radiators...
Short answer would seem to be yes. Very quick experiment with an old spare wing shows it's possible, but there are wrinkles to be ironed out if you want first rate results.
Main problem is getting the tack time for the gilding medium right. On a 20% by volume doped (indoor use) wing, the usual 5-10 minutes for a commonly used medium(*) is too long. It just soaks in and dries out. It sort of worked at 2 or 3 minutes, but you can see where I had to re-apply part of the leaf. It may be that very, very thin dope, 5% or more dilute, would be better than gilding medium, that or a medium may work on a highly doped, less porous, wing. A set of experiments for anyone who may be interested.
It's likely you'd need to seal the "gilding" with a thin layer of very dilute dope after it was applied to ensure some measure of durability.
Cheers,
Lurk
(*) I'm using Robertson's Ormoline Gilding Medium which is an acrylic based "instant" gilding medium. There are lots of others out there and one or more of them may be better suited to gilding paper. Wouldn't know, I'm only about two paragraphs ahead of you in the tutorial. :)
Thanks for trying that experiment Lurk, looks promising. I'd think one would want a structure under the tissue that minimized sag between the ribs, and a fairly thorough sealing job on the tissue before applying the leaf. I wonder if capillary action would be sufficient to pull thinners under the leaf and create a bond with the doped tissue? Probably would want to go with strips of leaf for each rib bay, or possibly even narrower, maybe mimicking the sections of the full-size radiators.
Hmmm...
Meanwhile, enjoying watching your Ryan coming together.
Cheers,
Mike
Has anyone realised yet that the Lindbergh flight took place on May 20-21 1927? And that the final assembly at San Diego took place on April 27 in time for the maiden flight on April 28?
Quote from: Stunthenk on Aug 07, 2026, 08:57 PMHas anyone realised yet that the Lindbergh flight took place on May 20-21 1927?
Ummm. Yes. :)
I would never have thought of using leaf - great idea and looks to be working well!
Tim
Quote from: THB on Aug 08, 2026, 12:01 PMI would never have thought of using leaf - great idea and looks to be working well!
Tim
Henk has a better idea, he's (possibly) going to try the bare metal foil the plastics crowd use on his F VII. Wish I'd thought of it, probably far easier and certainly much cheaper. :)
Quote from: StunthenkHas anyone realised yet that the Lindbergh flight took place on May 20-21 1927?
Yes, I was thinking of that all through when I watched the movie. I was going to mention it here but I'm too stunned -
100 years?? Impossible!
Every summer I get an urge to Build an NX-211 model - gotta commit next year, surely . . .
Stephen.
Quote from: Prosper on Aug 09, 2026, 12:53 PMQuote from: StunthenkHas anyone realised yet that the Lindbergh flight took place on May 20-21 1927?
Yes, I was thinking of that all through when I watched the movie. I was going to mention it here but I'm too stunned - 100 years?? Impossible!
Every summer I get an urge to Build an NX-211 model - gotta commit next year, surely . . .
Stephen.
The thing that rattled me was when I was given a copy of the June '77 issue of AM, which I'd had new, and realising it nigh on was half a century since I'd read it.
Time flies eh? Unlike my models. Ho hum.
Stephen> ...Every summer I get an urge to Build an NX-211 model...
There
may be a Peanut plan available in a few weeks/months time. :)
As I mentioned, the first flight of the NYP took place on 28 April 1927. And which event is scheduled to take place on 25 April, 2027? Close enough? (Hint, hint....)
If I can make mine fly, it will be at Walsall all else being well.
It was always my intention to have it ready for the Indoor Scale Nats as well as the centenary, but I hadn't realised the near match to the maiden flight date.
Anyway... got to have something to new fly now that my planned entry for intermediate, the Chiribiri, is in bits in the bin.
Wouldn't it be nice if there were one or two more there? Would Mr. Prosper please go to the white courtesy telephone in the foyer. Would Mr. Prosper....
Thanks for the link to the film Stephen - it's an old favourite of mine.
On learning that replica's had been made for the film I came across the following interesting story and flight of a very authentic replica.
NYP replica flight to a Museum in May this year
https://www.facebook.com/reel/2143638989754194
Also some of the construction photos by JNE Aircraft
https://www.jneaircraft.com/sosl
JNE videos of NYP flying
https://www.youtube.com/@JNEAircraft/videos
JNE facebook page
https://www.facebook.com/jnespirit
Lots of pics and a possible source of good reference material.
John
Have been busy with other things so all I've managed to do this last week or so is get part way through the motor/nose block. That's OK though, 'cos this was a potential stopper. Needs the holes for the remaining cylinders reaming out, nose plug fitted and sanding to final shape.
I think it's likely the exhaust stubs will be left off until it's trimmed and they may not even be added if I find that they're too fragile to withstand repeated removal and replacement of the nose block.
You'd thought I'd abandoned this hadn't you? No such luck, just been a bit busy.
The first go at reaming out the cylinder holes didn't work, too fragile, so it was back to the drawing board. This is better, but (note to self) in future dry fit the cylinder separators first to make sure you get a much more even distribution. As it is they're not badly off, but some are and it rankles. :)
It would be easier to make the motor with all disks, sand the taper in and then slice the bottom of the cylinders to fit the slope, but this assembly is likely to get mauled in everyday use and I want the cylinders to stay put. As much as I like my Dumas Ryan M-1 it does get a bit tedious hunting round the floor for cylinders when they get knocked off.
1 Fitting the cylinder separators.
2 Pack the gaps with dowel while sanding.
3 Extract the dowel.
4 High technology tooling. :)
Got there in the end.
The rocker covers and con-rods will be fitted towards the end of the build to reduce the risk of damage during construction.
Haven't got a clue how I'm going to do deal with the spinner, but that can wait until nearer the end of the build.
Combined weight as seen is a shade under 2.5g of which 1g is the fuselage "box". As long as the fuselage inc. "box" comes in somewhere close to 2g I think it'll probably be OK. The NYP has a fairly short nose so built in weight up front is not necessarily going to be a bad thing.
1 - Motor/ nose block. Built in right-thrust and down-thrust are about 2 deg.
2,3 - Nose block plugged in to fuselage box
Tell you something for nothing, the next one is going to have an in-line engine!
On to the easy(ish) bit now. Fuselage &tc.
3-D engine cylinders are hard! Good to see someone working on an engine for a smaller plane. Looks good. 90% done, 90% to go.
ian
We have a fuselage. At last. Just taped togther for the snaps. The box needs another go over with fine sandpaper before it gets glued to the the rest of the framework.
For those keeping count, the fuselage weight (framework + nose box) is 1.6g.
The motor/nose block in its current state is 1.5g.
This is not going to be an especially light model. Oh well.
Very neat Lurk
Only the easy parts to go :) It will look very impressive.
John
It's looking very good, Lurk. I may have missed it, but have you said how you're doing the overall colour? Ie. Sprayed, or with silver tissue? Or maybe some other sneaky method?
I have an ulterior motive for asking, having just got a Curtiss Robin kit on eBay which may well be my next kit scale entry. I'm highly tempted to finish the Robin as Douglas 'Wrong Way' Corrigan's aircraft, which was also silvery grey.
(Corrigan, you probably know, worked on the Ryan NYP, and was consequently inspired by Lindbergh's success to follow his own Atlantic ambitions.)
Quote from: Pete Fardell on Sep 09, 2026, 12:47 PM....have you said how you're doing the overall colour? Ie. Sprayed, or with silver tissue? Or maybe some other sneaky method?
I have discussed it, but probably only in e-mail messages with various Trinity bods. At the moment it is most likely to be a very light grey tissue finish.
I have some lovely lightweight Ag/Al tissue from Peck/Wind-it-Up that is under consideration, but it may be /too/ shiny, N-X-211 has quite a flat finish. I also have yet to test it to see how well it shrinks. My previous results with (VMC's) Ag/Al tissue were, at best, barely adequate. If it shrinks well and is fairly easy to work with I may use it instead of the light grey. Stay tuned in for more ...
A sprayed (rattle-can) finish is almost certainly not going to happen. I did think about it, but I think this model is too small and keeping the weight down is too important to risk it as my first attempt at a painted finish.
In other news. This evening saw the correction of a minor cock-up in the fuselage, photo another day, likewise the mistake on the plan that gave rise to it and the boiling and setting up of the tail outlines. Bill & John (Ozpaf) will be pleased to hear that the rudder area has been increased by 8.5% c.f. the α version of the plan.
It may surprise you to know that The Lurker Industries Aviation Co. Ltd.(Reg. Office Lechlade-On-Thames) maintains a close working relationship with Melrose Aeronautical Engineers (Sole Prop. Peter Smart. Gent.)
Having been told this you may not be surprised to hear that Mr. Smart requested a pre-release copy of the plan to carry out a test build. The Co. was pleased to supply same and to have Trinity's resident Stakhanovite set to.
Levity to one side. Peter couldn't get his build to co-operate at Trinity today for various reasons, but there are some very useful data that have come out of his build.
- An easier way to build the fuselage. Peter found the former based approach I've used... challenging. He gave up after 3 goes at it. When (if) I've got mine flying I'll redraw the plan using his box and stringer solution.
- The confirmation that the tail-plane does indeed need to be bigger.
- A simple and effective way to represent the engine turning on the nose. Briefly; an Al painted ground and then use a dark Al/Ag pen dotted on to that. I'll get the brand of pen he used next time I e-mail him. The dots on Peter's are on the large side, but even at that the effect from short arm's length is better than passable.
- The rest of it is fairly buildable, which is reassuring.
Enough natter. Some snaps.
Very interestin'. Re. my previous post about getting an urge to model NX211 every summer, the tiny tailplane is one of the off-putting factors. Bill Dennis has said that he has few qualms about small tailplanes (my interpretation of Bill's words), and I agree with him - I've flown rubber scale models with tailplanes 14% of wing area without problems - but I don't remember if NX211 even attains 14%.
Stephen.